Wind Stops, But Still Flower Falls

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This audio has been improved, so more of the students' questions may be discernible.

AI Summary: 

The talk delves into the Zen understanding of existence and non-existence using the metaphor of natural elements such as wind, flowers, and birds to illustrate the Zen concept of "there is" and "there is not." Zen's paradoxical viewpoint is explored, suggesting that the presence or absence of something is not a straightforward fact but can be perceived differently under varying conditions or states of mind. This idea is linked to the serene acceptance of all states of being, whether good or bad, tying it to daily practices and moments of Zen, like zazen (sitting meditation).

Key references and quotations include:
- A Zen poem recited in Japanese and translated, underscoring the tranquil but dynamic nature of reality.
- Ummon's teachings, especially his statement "Every day is good day," spotlighting the balanced view between existence and non-existence.
- The interrelation between physical experiences and their mental and existential interpretations through the practice of Zen.

The discussion suggests that true freedom and joy in Zen come not from avoiding or preferring certain states (like calmness or disturbance) but from a deep, non-dualistic appreciation and acceptance of things as they are. This philosophical stance is seen as applicable not only in formal meditation but in everyday activities and interactions.

AI Suggested Title: "Zen and the Paradox of Existence"


Source: City Center transcript by Barry Eisenberg. Entered onto disk by Jose Escobar, 1997. Checked against tape by Bill Redican, 9/25/00. Miyagawa Keishi-san kindly provided assistance with the translation of Japanese terms, particularly the verses on Pages 1 and 3–4.


File name: 71-08-15: wind stops, but still flower falls (titled by pf) (Verbatim)

; #improved-audio, #please-transcribe


When-- when wind stops, flowers fall.
When a bird sings, mountain become more calm.

That is a kind of Zen poem. My translation is not so good. [He recites the poem in Japanese, saying each line twice.]

Kaze yande hana mae otsu.
Kaze [Tori] naitei yama sarani yunari.

Kaze yande: When wind stops, but still flower falls. No-- there is no wind. If there is no wind, flower should stay, but flower-- after, you know, there is no wind, still flower falls. If a bird sings, it is not calm. But if you hear a bird sing in the remoted mountain, you feel the calmness of the mountain more. Kaze-- Tori naitei yama sarani yunari.

This is again-- this poem again refers to the feeling of “there is” and “there is not.” There is, and sometimes there is not. And there is not, sometimes there is [laughs]. When a flower falls, why flower falls is because there is wind. But when there is no wind, flowers still fall. And when you see a flower fall, you feel the wind, more than wind is up [?]. When a bird sings, you feel the calmness of the mountain more than you-- more than when you did not hear any sound. That is true. Isn't-- isn't that true?

That is real feeling of “there is” and “there is not.” That is actual feeling. But usually we are involved in the idea of “there is” or “there is not.” “There is not” means there is no wind. “There is not” means there is no wind. “There is no sound” means, you know, you don't hear anything-- that is, there is no sound. But actually, when you hear sound you do not feel of actual feeling of no sound. It is paradoxical, you may say, but that is much more true than your, you know, usual understanding of “there is” or “there is not.” Much more true. Kaze yande hana mae otsu. Kaze [Tori] naitei yama sarani yunari. You cannot, you know-- this is-- you cannot say this is just poem. This is actual reality.

When you, you know, have various things you eat, you become more hungry [laughs]. That is also true. “There is,” for us, there is not. “There is not,” for us, actually means there is. When there-- there is not much food, whatever you eat you will be satisfied with what you eat. Actually, you know, you feel satisfaction of the things you have, when there is not so much. “There is not” is for us “there is,” and “there is” for us “there is not much” [laughs] often.

That is very true for us. When that is very true for us, our thinking mind goes [in] another direction. That is why our practice is always confused [laughs]. On one hand, you know, your-- your feeling is very realistic and actual; on the other hand, your feeling is just logical. And it is ignoring actual feeling you have in our everyday life. No one knows which it is true. Both is true. There is something we should think about, right here.

Ummon one day asked our students: “I don't ask about-- I don't ask about fifteen days before. But how about fifteen days ahead?” That was his question. I don't ask you what has happened, you know, what has happened, actually, fifteen days before, or what has been-- what has happened for fifteen days, but I am asking you what will happen from now? That was Ummon's question. No one could answer for that-- for that question.

So Ummon said: “Every day is good day” [laughs]. That was his answer. Every day is a good day. Fifteen days, you know, it has been good days-- we have had good days for fifteen days, and we will have good days from now on. Every day is good day. That was Ummon's answer.

And that-- what he means is-- ”Every day good day” means every day-- actual-- his life of every day include “is not”-- include both “there is” and “there is not.” And he is satisfied with the idea of “there is” and the idea of “there is not.” “There is something” is good; “there is no-- nothing” is also good. But “there is,” at the same time, does not mean there is noth- -- actually there is something. But even though there is nothing for him, that is “there is.” Even though “there is,” you know, for him that is-- ”there is not” sometime.

Anyway, every day is good day for him. “There is” or “there is not,” he doesn't care. “There is”-- good. “There is” is good. And “there is not”-- also good. Every day is good day. When you, you know, understand exactly what is “there is” and what is “there is not,” then you have complete freedom from everything, and you can appreciate things in its true sense.

When there is no wind, still something-- some flower like camellia falls. In the deep mountain, when you hear a bird, then you feel, all of a sudden, you feel, “Oh, how quiet mountain it is.” Every day is a good day. Whatever happen to him, it is not just happening of something, or it is not just nothing happened. “Nothing happened,” you say, but many things is happening. When something happens, you feel nothing. The feeling of nothing is happening in the great universe, including sun and the moon and bright stars you see in Tassajara valley. That you see many stars-- actually when you see many stars, you will feel the vast emptiness of the sky. You are not just watching stars, but you are-- you are feeling, actually, you feel the vastness of the sky.

In short, if you are always involved in the life of “there is” or “there is not,” or enough or not enough, good or bad, right or wrong, you don't feel anything in its true sense. But when your mind is very calm, calm enough to see things which you do not actually see, when your mind is calmness, even though you see many things, you see-- you can appreciate the vastness of the being covered by something you see. Then you can appreciate things as it is. That is Ummon's “Every day is good day.” “Every day is good day.”

I put more emphasis on intellectual, you know, interpretation of our-- intellectual interpretation of our framework of Buddhist teaching, but more important thing is to have real feeling of practice.

Every day we practice zazen. In-- in summer, morning zazen is good, very good, but evening zazen is also good. It is little bit hot, but after, you know, sitting, when you feel cool wind from outside, you may feel indescribable, you know, feeling of practice. Night zazen in this time of the year is supposed to be very hot because it is hot. But actual feeling you have in zazen in such a warm days-- hot days-- you have indescribable good feeling, which you cannot appreciate in spring or autumn. Coolness of the-- feeling of the coolness is something more than you think about. Even though you know how good evening zazen is, but each time you sit you will feel, “Oh, good.” [Laughs.] Every time you sit, your feeling will be refreshed because, I think, because it is hot. “It is hot” is not “it is hot,” actually.

In monastery we do not have so good food [laughs] usually, and at Tassajara, as food is pretty strong and good, but not so, you know, not so tasty or it is very plain, I think of [?]. If you chew it-- when you chew it-- when you eat, you will feel real taste of the vegetables. If you cook by sugar and with many-- too much spices [laughs], you cannot appreciate real taste of the food.

If the way of accepting things is simple, you can appreciate the things more. So we say:

Jiki ni oite to naru mono wa,
ho ni oitemo mata to nari.

Jiki-- jiki is food.

If you-- if you can appreciate food,
you can appreciate dharma.

Jiki ni oite to naru. To-- do you know? To means “absolute.” Jiki ni oite to naru mono wa.

If you appreciate the real value of the absolute in food, you can appreciate dharma food: Jiki ni oite to naru mono wa, ho ni oitemo mata to nari. When your practice come to this stage, you are said to be a good monk or a good student [laughs]. We say:

Chojo wa chohosshin;
tanjo wa tanhosshin.

Someone like Chuck is-- is long buddha [laughs]. Someone like me is short buddha. Chojo wa chohosshin, tanjo wa tanhosshin. Short or long, good or bad, we say, we can appreciate things as it is, and we appreciate the value of each being [thing?]. That is something what I referred to in last-- last lecture.

But so far, at Tassajara, we have been discussing, we have had discussion after discussion [laughs]: discussing about, you know, food, or rules, or many things-- position. But why we did so is we cannot ignore idea of good and bad, long and short, but more and more as our students grew up, we can-- we must be able to appreciate things as they are. Bamboo is good, pine tree is good, oak tree is good, grass is good, darkness at night is good [laughs], frog is good. Everything should be good. That is “Every day is good day.” And nothing is good-- bare field [?] is good. Dark vast sky is good. That is, you know, our actual feeling we should reach [teach?].

Maybe next have question and answer if you have-- for fifteen minutes or so. Do you have some question? [Asides; laughter.] No question?

Student A (Dan Welch?): Roshi, sometimes it seems easy to accept your words. But you often tell us that words are pointing at the moon [?]. How [3-4 words].

SR: What I say--

Student A: Sometimes it seems that we can accept quite easily what you say. But maybe you don't live that long [?].

SR: Uh-huh. Yeah. Maybe so. [Laughs, laughter.]

Student A: But seriously, I don't know what to say--

SR: That is why I could [laughs, laughter]. Yeah-- because I say so, you accept it. When you say so, you die [?], you know. It means that if you really, you know, if you really have that kind of feeling, you know, it is al- [partial word: “always”?]-- what I say is always true. But because-- actual practice-- your actual practice is not always in-- in that way. Maybe it takes time, you know, to understand what I am saying.

But if my talk is end up in a kind of discussion, it doesn't make sense. We can have discussion any time-- but-- discussion is good, but discussion will not solve the problem completely. What I am talking right now is something you cannot reach by your mind, thinking mind, but something-- it is something you can feel through practice-- through real practice.

What is real practice and what is not? The point is, when you forget-- when you can forget yourself, then you have real practice. When your mind is always occupied by your small thinking mind or emotional mind or feeling or concepts, you cannot have real practice. Do you have some question-- some more question? Hai.

Student B: [1-2 words] situation [2-3 words]. Today I was working [3-4 words], and a big fly was landing on my face. A fly. Sometimes I brushed it off. And today I got angry [3-4 words]. And so I [12-16 words] -- so I didn't feel bad. It was a good day, but it wasn't [4-6 words]. In that kind of situation, maybe you have-- give me some advice on what I could [10-14 words] sometimes [4-6 words] at other times [4-6 words]. Sometimes if I [4-6 words] it turns warm-- very hot.

SR: When you are not patient, you know, when you become impatient, as you feel [reply from student; laughs], you don't feel so good. No-- not always so. When you become impatient [laughs], of course you may make face. How about, you know, painting? Drawing-- make some drawing of your impatient face on a paper, you know, when you have time. [Laughs, laughter.] [Student probably makes a face or draws one. SR is reacting to something with laughter.] Pretty good. May be very good Zen-- Zen picture-- Zen painting-- if you-- if you do it-- if you are able to do it. And if you cannot do it, maybe Dan [Welch?] will do it [laughs]. Pretty good-- not so bad.

But that you-- you do not like your impatient face, that was not so good. If you are patient enough, you know, to work in the garden, then why don't you do more-- little bit more patient-- a little bit. It is too soon to say this is good or bad. This is “My practice is good or bad.” You cannot say so easily because your practice will continue, you know.

Student C: Getting upset with yourself-- getting annoyed with yourself-- [1-2 words] if anything happens--

SR: Dualistic.

Student C: Its true it's dualistic, but if I face it I [2-3 words].

SR: Yeah, and because you say “dualistic,” that is not so, actually. When it is happening it is not so. After you, yeah, think about it, you feel dualistic.

Student C: [1-2 sentences unclear.]

SR: After. Yeah, that is not so good [laughs]. That is not so good. Your practice should continue and develop, you know, moment after moment. Your firewood does not become ash. Ash is ash, and firewood is firewood. And that you-- hot-- that you work in the garden, even though there are many flies, even though sun is strong, that is your practice at that time, and that practice actually extended to the practice of this evening: our practice of shikantaza. That is why you have good feeling when you appear in zendo with white tabi, with people, and recite, you know, sutra and make bow. You see? Your practice is going on and on and on.

Student C: When I started in the garden [?] this spring I thought-- if-- if-- if my understanding-- I think I understand what you're saying. However, for some reason my mind is blank about what the -- of what happened. Sometimes it-- sometimes I feel bad about what happened. But because I feel bad about what happened, I may be tongue-tied [?] and [1 word]-- not to do bad, whatever that is.

SR: That is, you know, another practice, you know. To reflect on what you do is quite different practice [than] you had before in-- in the garden. Refreshed practice. There is-- of course there is some connection, but you are not actually continuing same practice. Same practice but, you know, renewed practice. Not same-- not same but not different, we say. So you should understand in that way.

You should think about it, but you shouldn't stick to it. Why you shouldn't stick to it is it is renewed practice already, and that you feel bad is good. Who feels bad about it? Not your small mind, which was disturbed by flies, but it is by big mind-- big mind thinks that was not good. So you have your practice at that time, you know: practice of big mind. When you are annoyed by, you know, by flies, that was small-minded practice, but -- [Sentence not finished. Tape turned over.]

We say, if you fell down by [on] the ground, you will stand up, you know, by the ground. Do you understand? If you fell-- if you, you know, lose your practice because of the annoyance you have with flies, you will stand up [by the] same annoyance. Because when you say “I was annoyed by flies and that was not good practice,” then already you stand-- stood up, because you have big mind already. Do you understand?

So it is okay, even [laughs] you don't have to be concerned about it so much-- about your bad practice so much. But to-- to be concerned about it is good, because it is a practice of big mind. So [loud mike noise] those who-- you cannot say this has [6-8 words unclear]. If you fell on the ground you will stand up by the same old ground. If you say “My practice is not good,” [5-6 words], you are not standing already like this. So that-- because of this, you know, same old problem, you can stand up.

So if you enlighten with delusion-- about delusion, you are enlightened person, you know. If you are deluded as your enlightened mind, that is delusion. Do you understand? If you say “My practice was not good,” then that is enlightenment. It is not problem of what you did is good or bad, but problem of actual practice you have right now-- actual mind you have right now. If the actual mind you have right now is big mind, that is enlightenment. Okay? You-- you don't have to [be] concerned about what you did before, but you have to [laughs] because you have to stand up. But when you think that was wrong, that is already cleared up. You could cut off the delusion you have. You have not delusion any more. You are not deluded any more. Ahhh. Does it make sense? Okay? Hai.

Student D: If you're being bitten--

SR: Hmm?

Student D: If you're being bitten, say, by a fly or whatever it is, and you smack that fly you just think that-- you don't think about it-- the fly is on the ground dead [laughter]. [2 words] the way you are.

SR: Hmm?

Student D: Don't think about it. Go right on with whatever you're doing. You don't inflict upon it the anguish of something [?]. [4-5 words.]

SR: Different?

Student D: You don't think about it any way at all.

SR: You will think-- you will feel [in] some way, you know. It is not possible not to feel-- not to have any feeling about it. But what kind of feeling you have is the point.

Student D: Well, when I-- when I did this I didn't-- [3-4 words]-- whatever it was just died, and afterwards I thought, well maybe it just died that way [1-2 words] [laughter, comments by other students].

SR: Is it true with almost everyone? Do you agree [laughs] with his way [?]?

Student E: Let's kill Alan. [Laughter.]

SR: Huh?

Student F: Roshi, what if we smack him and then stomp on him? [Laughter.]

SR: What kind of reaction do you have? [Laughter.]

Student F: Like a blade of grass to become a buddha.

SR: Hmm?

Student F: Grass-- blade of grass to become a buddha.

SR: Ohh. [Laughs.] Even though, you know, at last-- This is famous statement of Dogen: Even though you do not like grass, grass will grow quite easily. Even though you like flower, life will-- flower will fall [laughs]. That is actual reality. Even though it is so, if-- if some-- you are stinged by-- by mosquito or horse-- horsefly, you know, you will do this [gesturing?] [laughs]. You will do this, maybe. But when you are involved in very serious practice, you wouldn't, you know. Even though mosquito comes, you will be sitting, and until you-- you may have many mosquitoes, you know, like small [1-2 words] [laughs]-- big [1-2 words]. They, you know, they will [3-4 words] sting us, but not only sting, but also they suck blood, you know, from us. More and more they will become like small, you know, fruits or something [laughs, laughter]. They cannot fly any more [laughs, laughter-- maybe gesturing]. But you will still-- you will be still sitting. And then you have to be careful when you-- you stand up, not-- not to step on mosquitoes [laughs].

So you feel calm to [1 word]. “Oh, he came.” And as soon as he came with his legs [1 word] and his-- what do you call it-- his pipe or something [laughs, laughter]-- needle [laughs]--

Student: Straw.

SR: Hmm?

Student: Straw.

SR: Straw. [Laughs, laughter.] -- you-- you feel his straw, you know, coming. Straw. Mouth. Straw. First, you know, legs; next straw; and straw, you know, [laughs] come in and come out like this [probably gestures], and while they are continue this for several moments, they stop and start to suck, until they become like this [probably gestures]. And they cannot fly because they are so heavy.

So you don't-- when your practice is completely involved in bad [?]-- big mind, you don't care. But, you know, but usually, for an instance, when a bug or big horsefly come [slaps self], I will-- I will do [?] like this. But what I feel is different. But whatever feeling I have, if something has happened already, you know, you cannot do anything. Even though it was bad-- it is not okay, but [laughs] we cannot do anything about it, so you have to think on it [?]-- you have-- you were-- how do you say?-- you have to make reflection.

How you feel is the point. If you feel bad, that is good. And it is not always possible-- it is not impossible not to feel good or bad if you-- unless you make some excuse. But to-- to make some excuse is very small mind. So don't make any excuse. Don't try to make any excuse [for] what you have done. If it is wrong, “I am sorry.” If it is good, then you will say “maybe so,” but you shouldn't feel completely satisfied with your practice. You should go on and on. Hai.

Student G: What about if you know it's wrong and you do it anyway?

SR: Huh?

Student G: What about if you know it's wrong and you do it anyway?

SR: When you do it anyway?

Student G: Yeah. You did so in a way that you know it in a minute [?].

SR: Uh-huh.

Student G: But you--

SR: You did it anyway.

Student G: -- you do it anyway.

SR: Uh-huh. Do you mean you did it because you have to-- had to?

Student G: I don't live in [1-2 words.]

SR: Anyway, it is very-- very difficult to understand exactly. Without thinking, do you mean? Anyway--

Student G: No, with thinking.

SR: Hmm?

Student G: -- with thinking.

SR: With thinking--

Student G: Yes.

SR: -- and not completely. “Anyway, I will do it.” That is not so serious. That is, I don't think, serious if-- not serious now. In your practice, yeah, we shouldn't do things just anyway, you know. “Okay, I will do it anyway.” Sometime it is good, you know. Without giving responsibility of doing to some-- somebody, taking resp-- -- the responsibility of doing to-- for yourself. “I will do it anyway,” you know. You don't have to say this way or that way. If it is bad, “that is my, you know, fault”; if it is good, you know, “because you helped me, I did it.” “But anyway I did it.” This kind of “anyway” is very good [?]. “But I don't know what we should do. Anyway I will do it”-- that is not so good [?]. But when you-- you are in some situation where you should do something, you know, then you will do it anyway. “Whether it is good or bad, someone must do it. So anyway I will do it.” That is also “anyway.” “I don't know what will happen to-- to us, but anyway I will go and find out.” That is also “anyway.” There must be many “anyways.” [Laughs, laughter.]

As you are mostly young, so I think you-- your practice should not be old man's practice. You should be confront with problem-- problems you have, you know, for you.

Do you have some questions, some more question? One more please. Hai.

Student H: [6-10 sentences unclear.]

SR: Hmm. Actually, you know, that is not-- cannot be, you know, serious question [laughs]. You know, you know, the answer already, perhaps, but you don't know what to do. That is why you ask me, isn't that so? You know, you know.

Student H: Well, I know-- I know that I [1-2 sentences unclear], but I [rest of sentence unclear].

SR: I-- I maybe-- I have some good answer? [Laughs, laughter.] No, I am sorry I haven't [laughs]. I don't have so good answer for that. But my answer will be, you know, if it's good chance for you to have that kind of problem. You know, because of that kind of problem, we can practice our way. It is good to have some problem. If it, you know-- this-- this is too much to say, but if we are cats or dog we have no problem, so we don't have to practice [laughs] [1 word]. We are happy in our problem. So that is not problem just for you. Everyone has same problems, actually. So as-- as long as you are-- you live in this land of Shakyamuni Buddha you have that problem-- or [living in the] human world, you have that problem.

In Buddhist traditionally [?], land of-- this world is Nansenbushu, the south side of the Mount Sumeru. On the opposite side there is Hokkuroshu, where there is no problem [laughs]. There is enough water to drink, and no cold and similar things, and enough juice [?] and various foods you enjoy; there is no problem. People [live] long time-- people do not die. If you are born in that kind of place, you know, you have more pleasure, and we have no Buddhism or no practice. That is very, you know-- But it suggest some truth.

So your question is based on the idea of understanding of our life. “If our life is full of happiness and joy, that is good life; if our life is full of suffering and problem, that is not good life.” That is a very superficial understanding of life. And most people-- people's view of life is based on that kind of idea of good or bad, which is not deep enough, which is not real enough.

So when you have that kind of problem, you should think of, you know, why you have-- when you have problem [?], you know, when you are able to think about it. When you are angry you cannot think, of course. But when you are not-- when your mind is calm, you should think about the foundation of your-- of your view of life-- understanding of life. And it is good to listen to some teaching like Buddhism. We do not talk about sin, but we talk about suffering and problem of life. And it is not possible to leave-- to get out of suffering and to, you know, to have life of no problem, according to our understanding of-- of human life.

Thank you very much.