We discussed about the question and answer between the 17th rhetoric and 18th rhetoric. Whether bell is ringing or wind is blowing, the teacher said, and disciple said, I am not wind nor bell ringing, but our mind is ringing. And the teacher said, what kind of mind is it?

[01:18]

And the disciple said, the mind of complete calmness. And usually, when we hear someone say, nor a bell or not bell or wind, but mind is ringing. Then, most people say, oh, that is very good answer. But that is not a complete answer. Mind is ringing means if we don't hear the bell, we cannot, there is no sound.

[02:39]

Because when our mind is ringing, I hear it, and our mind recognizes the sound like this. That is true, but that is not perfect answer. Why? The sound of the bell is the activity of whole universe. And blowing wind is also activity of whole universe, which covers everything. That we hear, our activity of mind is also the activity of whole universe.

[03:55]

Not only my activity, but also activity of whole universe. So one activity includes all this world. In this case, that mind is called big mind or capital mind. My mind, our mind is small mind, but mind which includes everything is capital mind. Although the character is same, but we understand this character in two ways, small mind and big mind. So what kind of mind is it? Small mind or big mind?

[05:00]

Although the teacher didn't say so, but he meant what kind of mind is it? Is it the mind which hears something, which recognizes something? One disciple said, no, that mind is big mind, which is in complete calm. That was his answer. Now, this is, you know, how we practice dharma. How our mind works or exists, how each one's own mind exists is so-called interrelationship.

[06:23]

My mind is supported by all of you, you know. And each one's mind is supported by all of mind. So, you know, and at the same time each one's mind is supporting, you know, supporting everyone's mind. So, you know, arrow comes from all of you and I'm receiving. And at the same time I'm giving, you know, my mind to each one of you like this. That is how our mind exists and how things exist.

[07:26]

That is so-called interrelationship. Interrelationship does not mean just between two, but between every being which exists in this world. So, you know, it is rather difficult. It is difficult to say this, my mind or your mind. We cannot say, you know, exactly if this mind is mine or yours. In this way our mind exists. But actually our mind exists in this way, but because of our karma we are doing something extra.

[08:37]

We have many troubles. Originally we have no trouble between us, but we have our own trouble. That is so-called karma. And as long as we exist everyone has karma. And from which it is not possible to escape from it all of a sudden. Little by little you can change your karma, but you cannot. We should know this point, you know, also.

[09:43]

Even though you practice doesn't attain enlightenment. On the other hand, you have your own karma. Sorry. I am there. You are quite free from your karma. It takes time. This point also we should know. That is why we cannot practice zazen so well, you know, because of our own karma we suffer. If you eat too much, you know, or if you work too hard, you cannot practice so well.

[10:57]

But those problems in your practice, if you think clearly, it also exists in relationship to others, to other activities you have done. We have been practicing, counting, breathing, practice. I am sorry, very sorry for you, for putting you in such a difficult practice.

[12:14]

I know how difficult it is. But I think unless you know, until you know how difficult it is, you will not realize how important it is to practice counting, breathing, practice once in a while, to check your practice. Actually, you know, secret of counting, breathing, practice is, you know... If you laugh, I will not give you, I will not.

[13:32]

This is rather, you know, this secret is, must be kept only for me, but... As you have been practicing so hard, without knowing, why I put you in this practice? I only wanted you to know how difficult it is. Not only, you know, counting, breathing, practice, just to have good breathing is difficult enough.

[14:46]

I will say, don't let them say, excuse me. After all, what is your inhaling and exhaling? After all, what is it? Therefore, there is no self. After all, what is it? What is the exhaling and what is the inhaling? After all, what is it? Therefore, it is, maybe, if you write this sentence, you know, after all, what is, after all, what is it?

[16:00]

And question mark, and many dots. And so, there is no self. After all, who you are? Question mark, and many dots. So, there is no self. You understand? We are receiving many things from numerous, numerous people. And we are giving out many things to numerous people. We think we are just exhaling or inhaling.

[17:01]

But where the air comes and where our exhaling is going? To where is it going? So, there is no self. No one knows what we are doing. What is even just one exhaling? It is not possible to know. What is it? It is, we say, it is inhaling or exhaling. That is maybe right. But, actually, no one knows what it is. Everything is like this, you know. James, you know, robe or dress is black.

[18:11]

But, what is black? If you dip the material six times, you know, in strong black thing, it may be almost black, but not complete, maybe. If you dip it ten times, it may be black, but almost, still almost black. Then, what is black? No one knows. But we know, as if, we feel as if we know what is black exactly. No, that is black, we say, but if someone asks, is that black?

[19:25]

You may say, maybe black, looks like black. It is almost impossible to know what is even black, and what is human being, what is inhaling and exhaling. And if someone asks you, what is Zen? You know, is it possible to, you know, answer for that kind of complicated, you know, big practice? It is not possible. And what is counting, breathing, you know, practice? Practice. Most people may think that is just beginner's practice.

[20:34]

Just beginner's practice. Cannot be so difficult. If you have strong will power, we can do it. If you have enough sleep and eat properly, then you can do it. But not that easy. That you can think that is easy, is wrong, completely wrong. Nothing can be so easy. If you start to practice with this understanding, for the first place,

[21:36]

you know, you can practice counting, breathing, practice pretty well. Not complete, but pretty well. Actually, your posture, you know, and your breathing, and your mudra, it is helping, you know, counting, breathing, practice. So counting, breathing, practice also helping your posture and your breathing, and calmness of your mind. So counting, breathing, practice is not just counting, breathing, practice.

[22:38]

It is actually following breathing, practice. And it may be skandhasa too. So all those practice is actually many names of one practice. So it is wrong to think counting, breathing, practice is just beginner's practice. It is not so. And just to follow your breathing is not following breathing, practice. Just like, just to sit, just counting your breathing is not counting, breathing, practice.

[23:59]

To count your breathing will be, you know, for the beginner, will help your practice. Like pain in your legs will help your practice. Practice. But at the same time, it will be disturbance for your practice. Sometimes you feel much better to sit without counting, because, you know, if you count, it creates some disturbance for your calmness of your mind. But the point is, without being disturbed by disturbance,

[25:18]

or without relying on any help, to sit properly is skandhasa. So how to, you know, practice our way without relying on something, without being disturbed by something, it's the point of our practice. You may, you know, if someone asks, how should I do when we have too much idea in our mind, what should I do?

[26:23]

You may say, let them come in, let them go out, and that is how we practice. To say in that way is very easy, very, very easy. And someone who asks you, oh, that is quite easy, if you sit, even though then it doesn't matter whatever you think in your practice, you know. Let them come in, and let them go out. If that is practice, then it's pretty easy. But actually, it is not that easy. When you, you know, add something on your practice, like counting, breathing, practice,

[27:41]

naturally, in skandhasa, if you sit, you know, without being bothered by anything, without relying on something else, just to sit, this is skandhasa. But if you add something to it, you will realize how difficult it is to carry on our practice into our everyday life. And at the same time, if you find it difficult, then there is your key to open the secret. As I told you, I'm not giving you, you know, the secret of the box.

[28:56]

But so that I can, you may have a key to open the secret of the practice, you know, I put you in counting, breathing, practice this time. Mindok-san, I couldn't, I'm sorry I couldn't see you all. But I saw some of old students and some of comparatively new students, and I found that I'm very much satisfied with your answer, you know.

[30:09]

You gave me the answer which I expected. You came to the same conclusion. I think you have the same key as mine. So the next thing we should do is to open the box. Thank you.

[32:34]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[34:17]

Thank you. [...] Here, Doyenjin talks about what is complete calmness. The complete calmness means to go beyond duality. How to go beyond duality is to practice something with complete effort, physical and mental.

[35:45]

That is why we call it complete calmness is because those activities we have include everything. So when each one of us includes everything, there is no duality. Even though there is no duality, there is interrelationship, and we are helping everyone. And we are helped by everyone. This is the final conclusion of our practice.

[37:03]

Thank you. Having this understanding always in your mind a little while to improve your practice is, in short, how we practice zazen. Tomorrow we will have shosan ceremony. The shosan ceremony will be question and answer between student and teacher.

[38:41]

And there must be some common ground, there must be some mutual understanding. To express some certain idea in words. If possible, I want you to ask question. About, for instance, counting breathing practice, or about something which we discussed in our lectures.

[39:57]

I think you must have understood something, how we treat things, and how we express something which you have in your mind, and how you solve the problem, how you work on your difficulties. Having this kind of understanding in your mind, I want you to put it in the form of question. It is not always mean to ask question as something you ask about which you don't know.

[41:12]

Even though you know it, you put it in the form of question and ask. And expect my answer for that question. That is, you know, more like question between teacher and disciple. It is kind of a mutual training. To ask question is not to ask some help, you know. But mutual training. In this way, back and forth, ancient Zen students train themselves.

[42:16]

So, you can ask yourself some question, and answer for that question. Back and forth, in your mind you should do that. And, if you prepare for that, you can ask me some question. And see what I will say. So, question and answer is very interesting, you know. Even though you expect some answer, you know, my answer will go some other direction, you know. Even though my answer is something you didn't expect, you should be able to follow that direction.

[43:25]

You shouldn't be lost. And teacher will always try to put you in some confusion. Sometimes, you know, teacher will give you some answer which you expect. But back and forth, in this way, we help with each other. So, if it is question and answer, it is just to ask something which you don't know. It is not so meaningful, you know. So, when you don't know how you should help yourself,

[44:34]

even though you have some answer, it will not work so well. Because you will not understand what really teacher meant by it. You will not have ear to listen to it. So, to know how we should discuss things, the way we discuss things. I think it is a little bit earlier, but without having question and answer,

[46:07]

raising question and answer for tomorrow, we will finish this evening's practice. Thank you very much.

[46:24]

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