We discussed about the question and answer between the 17th Patriarch and the 18th Patriarch. Whether bell is jingling or wind is blowing, the teacher said, and the disciples said, not wind nor bell, but our mind is ringing. And the teacher said, what kind of mind is it?

[01:12]

And the disciples said, the mind of complete calmness. And usually when we hear someone say, nor a bell or not bell or wind, but mind is ringing, then most people say, oh, that is very good answer. But that is not a complete answer. Mind is jingling means if we don't hear the bell, there is no sound.

[02:34]

Because our mind hears it and our mind recognizes the sound like this. That is true, but that is not a perfect answer. Why? The sound of the bell is the activity of whole universe. And blowing wind is also activity of whole universe which covers everything. That we hear, our activity of mind is also the activity of whole universe, not only my activity but also activity of whole universe.

[04:01]

So one activity includes everything. In this case, that mind is called big mind or capital mind. My mind, our mind is small mind, but mind which includes everything is capital mind. Also the character is same, but we understand this character in two ways, small mind and big mind. So what kind of mind is it? Small mind or big mind? Also the teacher didn't say so, but he meant what kind of mind is it?

[05:08]

Mind which hears something, which recognizes something. One disciple said, no, that mind is big mind which is in complete calm. That was his answer. Now, this is, you know, how we practice zazen. How our mind works or exists, how each one's own mind exists is so-called interrelationship.

[06:21]

My mind is supported by all of you, and each one's mind is supported by all of mind. So, you know, and at the same time each one's mind is supporting, you know, supporting everyone's mind. So, you know, arrow comes from all of you and I'm receiving it. And at the same time I'm giving, you know, my mind to each one of you like this. That is how our mind exists and how things exist.

[07:24]

That is so-called interrelationship. Interrelationship does not mean just between two, but between every being which exists in this world. So, you know, it is rather difficult. It is difficult to say this, my mind or your mind. We cannot say, you know, exactly if this mind is mine or yours. In this way our mind exists. But actually our mind exists in this way, but because of our karma we are doing something extra.

[08:36]

We have many troubles. Originally we have no troubles between us. But today we have so many troubles. That is so-called karma. And as long as we exist everyone has karma. And from which it is not possible to escape from it all of a sudden. Little by little you can change your karma, but you cannot. Now we should know this point, you know, also.

[09:43]

Even though you practice a dozen or attain enlightenment, on the other hand you have your own karma. So, until you are quite free from your karma it takes time. This point also we should know. That is why we cannot practice zazen so well, you know, because of our own karma we suffer.

[10:44]

If you eat too much, you know, or if you work too hard, you cannot practice so well. But those problems in your practice, it's also, if you think clearly, it is also exists in relationship to others, to other activities you have done. We have been practicing, counting, breathing, practice.

[11:54]

I am sorry, very sorry for you, for putting you in such a difficult practice. I know how difficult it is. But I think, unless you know, until you know how difficult it is, you will find out, you will not realize how important it is to practice counting, breathing, practice once in a while, to check your practice. Actually, you know, secret of counting, you know, breathing, practice is, you know...

[13:14]

If you laugh, I will not give you. I will not. This is zazen. This secret must be kept only for me. As you have been practicing so hard, without knowing, why I put you in this practice? I only wanted you to know how difficult it is. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[14:33]

Not only you are counting, breathing, practice, just to have good breathing is difficult enough. You are hungry, you are so tired. But, we say, don't understand, we say, after all what is your inheritance, exhale, exhale. After all, what is it? Therefore, there is no self. After all, what is it? What is the exhale?

[15:39]

After all, what is it? Therefore, maybe, if you write this sentence, you know, after all, what is it? What is it? Nothing big. And question mark. And many dots. And so, there is no self. After all, who you are? Question mark. And many dots. So, there is no self. Do you understand? We are receiving many things from numberless people.

[16:51]

And we are giving now to numberless people. We think we are just exhaling or inhaling. But where the air comes and where our exhaling is going? To where it is going? So, there is no self. No one knows what we are doing. What is it? Even just one exhaling, first, it is not possible to know. What is it? It is, we say, it is inhaling or exhaling. That is your... But, actually, no one knows what it is.

[17:58]

Everything is like this, you know. James. Black. This is black. But... But it is black. If you dip the material six times, I am strong. Black. Black. It may be almost black, but not completely. If you dip it ten times, it may be black. But below, almost, still almost black. What is it?

[19:04]

Black. No one knows. But we know. We feel as if we know what is black exactly. No, that is black. If someone asks, is that black? I say, may be black. It must look like that. It is almost impossible to know what is even black. What is even being. What is inhaling or exhaling. Yeah. And if someone asks you, what is Zen? Is it possible to answer for that kind of complicated, big practice?

[20:19]

It is not possible. And what is counting, breathing? Practice. Most people may think that is just beginner's practice. Beginner's practice. Cannot be so difficult. If you have strong will power, I think we can do it. If you have enough sleep and eat properly, then you can do it. But not that easy. That you can think that is easy.

[21:23]

It is wrong, completely wrong. Nothing can be so easy. If you start to practice with this understanding, for the first place, you can practice counting, breathing, and practice pretty well. Not completely, but pretty well. Actually, your posture, you know, and your breathing, and your mood, it's helping your counting, breathing practice. So counting, breathing practice also helping your posture and your breathing.

[22:32]

And calmness of your mind. So counting, breathing practice is not just counting, breathing practice. It is actually following breathing practice. And it may be skandhasana. So all those practice is actually many names of one practice. So it is wrong to think counting, breathing practice is just beginner's practice.

[23:33]

It is not so. And just to follow your breathing is not... following your breathing practice. Just like, just to sit, just counting your breathing is not counting, breathing practice. To count your breathing will be, you know, for the beginners. It will help your practice. Like pain in your legs will help your practice.

[24:40]

But at the same time, it will be disturbance for your practice. Sometimes you feel much better to sit without counting. Because if you count, it creates some disturbance for your calmness of your mind. But the point is, without being disturbed by disturbance, or without relying on any help, to sit properly is skandhasana. So how to, you know,

[25:47]

practice our way? Without relying on something, without being disturbed by something, it's the point of our practice. You may, you know, if someone asks me, how should I do when we have too much idea in our mind? What should I do? You may say, let them come in, let them go out. That is how we practice. To say in that way is very easy. Very, very easy.

[26:54]

And someone who asks you, oh, that is quite easy. If you sit, even though then it doesn't matter whatever you think in your practice. Let them come. And let them go out. If that is practice, then it's pretty easy. But actually, it is not that easy. When you, you know, add something on your practice, like counting, breathing, practice, naturally in skandhasana,

[27:57]

if you sit, you know, without being bothered by anything, without relying on anything else, just to sit, this is skandhasana. But if you add something to it, you will realize how difficult it is to carry on our practice into our everyday life. And at the same time, if you find it difficult, then there is your key to open the secret. As I told you, I'm not giving you the, you know,

[29:01]

the secret of the box. But so that I can, you may have a key to open the secret of the practice, I put you in counting and breathing of practice this time. And if you get, after you get that, if you get that, you will recognize the secret. That's it. That's the key to skandhasana. The secret. So, how is it, you? You have to just come here, you know, and love your practice.

[30:06]

I'm not teaching you how to practice. I'm not teaching you. I'm not... How's that? Oh, it is... It's not that simple. I'm asking you.

[30:32]

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